<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Trading Game: A Simple, Easy to Run In-Class Experiment</title>
	<atom:link href="http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/</link>
	<description>Agriculture, Development, and Food Policy.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 15 May 2013 12:05:53 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Marc F. Bellemare</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-22131</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc F. Bellemare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 00:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-22131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fair enough. Two things, however: 

1. People start out in real life with random endowments of &quot;stuff&quot; (no one picks where and in which family they are born), some of which they don&#039;t want and trade for stuff they do want, and 
2. You are right that if the &quot;optimum&quot; (which I presume you define as the maximum of all possible aggregate welfare values) happens, it is purely out of luck. But then again, the idea is not to attain some idealized optimum but just to show that trade can, in principle, make everyone better off in our stylized economy (and brings us closer to the idealized optimum by so doing).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough. Two things, however: </p>
<p>1. People start out in real life with random endowments of &#8220;stuff&#8221; (no one picks where and in which family they are born), some of which they don&#8217;t want and trade for stuff they do want, and<br />
2. You are right that if the &#8220;optimum&#8221; (which I presume you define as the maximum of all possible aggregate welfare values) happens, it is purely out of luck. But then again, the idea is not to attain some idealized optimum but just to show that trade can, in principle, make everyone better off in our stylized economy (and brings us closer to the idealized optimum by so doing).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ezra abrams</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-22129</link>
		<dc:creator>ezra abrams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 00:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-22129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[but..you started off from a random distribution, which (i think) doesn&#039;t occur.
That is, you don&#039;t start with people who have stuff they don&#039;t want (why did they buy it in the first place)
You can have people making stuff for sale that they don&#039;t want, but that seems different.
to put it another way, if each student has some value for each trinket, and you randomly assign trinkets, what is the probability that you will be near the optimum ? I&#039;m guessing for 50 or so students, it won&#039;t happen in the age of the universe]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>but..you started off from a random distribution, which (i think) doesn&#8217;t occur.<br />
That is, you don&#8217;t start with people who have stuff they don&#8217;t want (why did they buy it in the first place)<br />
You can have people making stuff for sale that they don&#8217;t want, but that seems different.<br />
to put it another way, if each student has some value for each trinket, and you randomly assign trinkets, what is the probability that you will be near the optimum ? I&#8217;m guessing for 50 or so students, it won&#8217;t happen in the age of the universe</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Marc F. Bellemare</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-22123</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc F. Bellemare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2012 18:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-22123</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s an &lt;em&gt;intro&lt;/em&gt; course. I do teach some market power, some externalities, etc. later on in the semester, but you&#039;ve got to start somewhere. And by and large, trade &lt;em&gt;does&lt;/em&gt; make people better off when people trade voluntarily, when property rights are well enforced, etc. If it weren&#039;t the case, you&#039;d observe very little market activity the world over at any given time. The idea is to get students to understand that markets &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; increase welfare (though I spend a good bit of time in class saying that there exist real constrains to that happening in the real world). 

Redistribution is an entirely different ball game which my students don&#039;t get to hear about until the second required econ course they take at the Sanford School, which centers around public economics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an <em>intro</em> course. I do teach some market power, some externalities, etc. later on in the semester, but you&#8217;ve got to start somewhere. And by and large, trade <em>does</em> make people better off when people trade voluntarily, when property rights are well enforced, etc. If it weren&#8217;t the case, you&#8217;d observe very little market activity the world over at any given time. The idea is to get students to understand that markets <em>can</em> increase welfare (though I spend a good bit of time in class saying that there exist real constrains to that happening in the real world). </p>
<p>Redistribution is an entirely different ball game which my students don&#8217;t get to hear about until the second required econ course they take at the Sanford School, which centers around public economics.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-22117</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2012 18:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-22117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How is it possible to show students that trade leaves no-one worse off when that&#039;s empirically not the case? This is exactly the sort of &quot;textbook neoclassical economics&quot; that assumes away &quot;risk and uncertainty, market power, externalities, asymmetric information, transaction costs,&quot; that you discuss in your blog post &#039;How Much Economics Should You Take?&#039; (http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/01/how-much-economics-should-you-take-in-college/). Yes, trade CAN make everyone better off, under certain naive conditions, but it can also make some people much worse off, particularly in light of non-tariff barriers to trade. That&#039;s not to say trade is always bad, but the proviso usually applied in principle-based discussions of economics—that at least some of the gains of trade are redistributed to those who will be worse off—almost never happens in reality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is it possible to show students that trade leaves no-one worse off when that&#8217;s empirically not the case? This is exactly the sort of &#8220;textbook neoclassical economics&#8221; that assumes away &#8220;risk and uncertainty, market power, externalities, asymmetric information, transaction costs,&#8221; that you discuss in your blog post &#8216;How Much Economics Should You Take?&#8217; (<a href="http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/01/how-much-economics-should-you-take-in-college/" rel="nofollow">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/01/how-much-economics-should-you-take-in-college/</a>). Yes, trade CAN make everyone better off, under certain naive conditions, but it can also make some people much worse off, particularly in light of non-tariff barriers to trade. That&#8217;s not to say trade is always bad, but the proviso usually applied in principle-based discussions of economics—that at least some of the gains of trade are redistributed to those who will be worse off—almost never happens in reality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nick Magnan</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-21904</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Magnan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2012 01:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-21904</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I used this game in my undergraduate natural resource economics class after learning about it from Marc. I can&#039;t spend university money on things the students keep, and I have a class of 50, so I had the students bring in a &quot;trinket&quot; from around the house with an approximate market value of under $5. The students brought in a wide range of stuff, and it all went in a big box. At the beginning of the game, everyone received a random trinket from the box. I had them assign a utility value to their trinket from 0-10. Then I divided the class into 2 groups, and let them trade with whomever they wanted in either group for 3 minutes. After they were done trading, the aggregate utility of each group went up. I explained that this was a Pareto improvement. I then asked them to compare the increase in utility between the two groups to see who benefited most from trade, and then explained how utility is ordinal and not cardinal, so it not directly comparable. 

Before the next round of trade I had them wrote down their willingness to pay for their good (we learned WTP in a previous class, not WTA), and added up aggregate WTP for each group. Then I had them trade again, but changed the rules to let one group dictate the terms of trade; members of the other group had to accept whatever deal was proposed. After this round of “trade” they wrote down their new utilities, and their new WTP. The aggregate utility for one group was much lower than the other, of course, and the decrease for the plundered was about the same as the increase for the plunderers. But the increase in aggregate WTP for the plunderers was much greater than the decrease in aggregate WTP for the plundered! This outcome was a nice surprise because it demonstrated a potential Pareto improvement. This result led into to a good discussion on efficiency, equity, and ethics, which are underlying themes for the class. They seemed to really like the game- even those that lost the good trinkets. Thanks again for the idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used this game in my undergraduate natural resource economics class after learning about it from Marc. I can&#8217;t spend university money on things the students keep, and I have a class of 50, so I had the students bring in a &#8220;trinket&#8221; from around the house with an approximate market value of under $5. The students brought in a wide range of stuff, and it all went in a big box. At the beginning of the game, everyone received a random trinket from the box. I had them assign a utility value to their trinket from 0-10. Then I divided the class into 2 groups, and let them trade with whomever they wanted in either group for 3 minutes. After they were done trading, the aggregate utility of each group went up. I explained that this was a Pareto improvement. I then asked them to compare the increase in utility between the two groups to see who benefited most from trade, and then explained how utility is ordinal and not cardinal, so it not directly comparable. </p>
<p>Before the next round of trade I had them wrote down their willingness to pay for their good (we learned WTP in a previous class, not WTA), and added up aggregate WTP for each group. Then I had them trade again, but changed the rules to let one group dictate the terms of trade; members of the other group had to accept whatever deal was proposed. After this round of “trade” they wrote down their new utilities, and their new WTP. The aggregate utility for one group was much lower than the other, of course, and the decrease for the plundered was about the same as the increase for the plunderers. But the increase in aggregate WTP for the plunderers was much greater than the decrease in aggregate WTP for the plundered! This outcome was a nice surprise because it demonstrated a potential Pareto improvement. This result led into to a good discussion on efficiency, equity, and ethics, which are underlying themes for the class. They seemed to really like the game- even those that lost the good trinkets. Thanks again for the idea.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: michael langford</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-21774</link>
		<dc:creator>michael langford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 01:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-21774</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If only trade in the real world worked that way, without subsidies or regulation or intervention, or outright chicanery.  It doesn&#039;t.  And I&#039;m not one of those damnfool Libertarians, either.  There&#039;s an old English novel called &quot;The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists&quot; that has a similar game called &quot;The Great Money Trick&quot; which demonstrates the relationship between Capital and Labor.  Capital stacks the deck and Capital wins.  Hands down.  Try it, economist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If only trade in the real world worked that way, without subsidies or regulation or intervention, or outright chicanery.  It doesn&#8217;t.  And I&#8217;m not one of those damnfool Libertarians, either.  There&#8217;s an old English novel called &#8220;The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists&#8221; that has a similar game called &#8220;The Great Money Trick&#8221; which demonstrates the relationship between Capital and Labor.  Capital stacks the deck and Capital wins.  Hands down.  Try it, economist.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-21621</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 20:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-21621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Planet Money podcast did the same thing recently with primary school children and gifts of candy: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/12/21/132203873/the-tuesday-podcast-making-christmas-more-joyful-and-more-efficient (starts about 7 minutes in).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Planet Money podcast did the same thing recently with primary school children and gifts of candy: <a href="http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/12/21/132203873/the-tuesday-podcast-making-christmas-more-joyful-and-more-efficient" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/12/21/132203873/the-tuesday-podcast-making-christmas-more-joyful-and-more-efficient</a> (starts about 7 minutes in).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Welcome New Readers! &#124; Marc F. Bellemare</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-21411</link>
		<dc:creator>Welcome New Readers! &#124; Marc F. Bellemare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-21411</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...]  Many of you have paid their first visit to this blog in the last few days, after my post on the trading game went viral on Reddit last Wednesday and Greg Mankiw linked to it on Thursday. If this describes [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Many of you have paid their first visit to this blog in the last few days, after my post on the trading game went viral on Reddit last Wednesday and Greg Mankiw linked to it on Thursday. If this describes [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andre de Cavaignac</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-21390</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre de Cavaignac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2012 23:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-21390</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s clever.

I would  suspect that equality had also increased, as more people have been left with the goods they wanted (and will assign a higher value to) over goods they valued lowly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s clever.</p>
<p>I would  suspect that equality had also increased, as more people have been left with the goods they wanted (and will assign a higher value to) over goods they valued lowly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: K Zhang</title>
		<link>http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/2012/09/the-trading-game/#comment-21320</link>
		<dc:creator>K Zhang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marcfbellemare.com/wordpress/?p=7259#comment-21320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Because the game is so simple, it would be very easy for lay people to make a conclusion that &quot;trade makes everybody better off&quot;. I think this is not the right conclusion to make, and this question is tied to the public debate on the benefit of free market. 

Using the game&#039;s rules, we see that nobody&#039;s welfare will decrease (because a trade cannot happen if it does), and the total welfare will go up. But if we try to make a more realistic rule, you will see that while the total welfare may go up, it&#039;s no longer guaranteed that everybody will be better off. Imagine that one of the students decides that instead of getting a trinket he wants, he trades for a trinket he thinks other people likes, but he didn&#039;t like. So he will first make a trade that, on a strict level, decreases his welfare, with the expectation to earn it back later. Even if he&#039;s right, it is no longer true that the welfare always increases after every trade. The reason that this scenario is more realistic, because no one in the society makes things strictly for his own consumption. Everyone makes things expecting to trade with other people. And when the expectations are off, people lose.  American manufacturers made investments expecting to trade with American consumers. Workers made investments in skills expecting to trade with American manufacturers. When the American consumers chose to trade with Chinese manufacturers, some people are worse off from this  trade. People don&#039;t have a choice whether to be exposed to these risks, they have to be exposed to some kind of risk. Most often, the winners and losers are chosen randomly, as no one can foresee the future. The free market principle ignores this, and ignores that sometimes people lose due to nothing but luck. The case for progressivism would be for the government to step in and mitigate that risk. Regardless of whether you agree, it&#039;s important to note that the answer is not simple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because the game is so simple, it would be very easy for lay people to make a conclusion that &#8220;trade makes everybody better off&#8221;. I think this is not the right conclusion to make, and this question is tied to the public debate on the benefit of free market. </p>
<p>Using the game&#8217;s rules, we see that nobody&#8217;s welfare will decrease (because a trade cannot happen if it does), and the total welfare will go up. But if we try to make a more realistic rule, you will see that while the total welfare may go up, it&#8217;s no longer guaranteed that everybody will be better off. Imagine that one of the students decides that instead of getting a trinket he wants, he trades for a trinket he thinks other people likes, but he didn&#8217;t like. So he will first make a trade that, on a strict level, decreases his welfare, with the expectation to earn it back later. Even if he&#8217;s right, it is no longer true that the welfare always increases after every trade. The reason that this scenario is more realistic, because no one in the society makes things strictly for his own consumption. Everyone makes things expecting to trade with other people. And when the expectations are off, people lose.  American manufacturers made investments expecting to trade with American consumers. Workers made investments in skills expecting to trade with American manufacturers. When the American consumers chose to trade with Chinese manufacturers, some people are worse off from this  trade. People don&#8217;t have a choice whether to be exposed to these risks, they have to be exposed to some kind of risk. Most often, the winners and losers are chosen randomly, as no one can foresee the future. The free market principle ignores this, and ignores that sometimes people lose due to nothing but luck. The case for progressivism would be for the government to step in and mitigate that risk. Regardless of whether you agree, it&#8217;s important to note that the answer is not simple.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
